Apple Valley Ohio Lake Community by Sam Miller

Sam,

I searched for a flaw in your reasoning but I think you have a valid point here. Seems like a disadvantage for sure!

Agreed!  Perhaps we need to hit them in the pocketbook, unite and withdraw!  OUCH!  We will probably experience more freedom and a lot less in fees.  It resembles the US Postal service; people are using email much more than regular mail and the PO is raising the price of stamps...huh???

Valid point but very flawed a if MLS is not a copywritten term there is nothing to stop us from using it as part of our Domain names. I would need to see more information on this topic to truly make a decision.

Sam,

I think you're dead-on with this scenario! We've know for years while some things may not be considered ethical under the COE, they are still legal in most states.

Heather - The issue relates to the newly revised code of ethics and not who actually owns MLS.  This is VERY bad for our industry. 

Richard - Thanks for your comment and I dislike this and I get the feeling you share my view.

Sara - I hear you loud and clear.  I actually believe once NAR is approached with this and they see the ripple that they are about to create I belive they would be willing to compromise this issue.

Lynda - The challenge is that if this is legal but an ethics violation this can run into the thousands of dollars.  Our Board of Realtors has mentioned that the fine could be as much as $11,000. 

Sam - can you point me in the direction of the NAR rule that says we can't use MLS in our domain? Of course, I could always legally change my name to Michelle Lynn Smith ;-)

Sam,  I enjoyed reading this post.  Very thought provoking.  I still think the NAR is good for Realtors because of it's lobbying power.  But some things do put Realtors at a disadvantage.

Jenn - Check out section 12.  Our Board of Realtors had a January meeting and this is when they dropped this bomb on us. 

Jimmy - I do not disagree.  However, NAR totally blew it when they did the deal with Realtor.com and they may have had good intentions but they did nothing but empower non members who they have no control over which is a HUGE mistake.  I believe NAR just might take a second look at this if enough people make an issue out of it.

Lets get this straight. We bust our butts to get listings, service them put them into MLS. Realtor.com charges us to put our listings into their system, and now, we can't use MLS in a domain name.  A 3rd party can, collect leads and sell them to us for a 30-35% referral fee. You ALL need to take this to your local and state boards. 

 

We do they work, they skim the cream.

 

 

Hi again,

Sam I guess my point was the difference between being a REALTOR vs. a MLO for example. Knowing that it is legal for non-REALTOS. While I'm usually a suporter of NAR (been a member for decades) on most things, I'm also in agreement with you on the whole Realtor.com issue myself.

Joe - I could not have said that any better...you absolutely hit the nail on the head.

Lynda - We are certainly on the same page with both issues.  

Sam:  I still can't believe we are still discussing this or should I say, STILL discussing this.  One of the problems when you have such a big industry with all the rules we have is that sometimes the powers that be lose site of what we actually are working with - or what we are fighting for.  Of course, if MLS is allowed in any URL, every REALTOR would have a domain name with MLS in it someplace!!!  Hmmmm......  Of course, if MLS isn't trademarked by our industry, and they want to protect it (which I don't think they can) then we should own it.  We can't even use MLS on our web site - as in to say 'Search for all home in MLS'!!! 

Pat - This decision is shocking to me in a big way.  A company like Lending Tree could buy up all available domains and begin marketing them to generate buyer and seller leads...they can do this buy we as REALTORS can not.  There is something wrong with this picture for sure.

This is quite serious, and Sam is absolutely right on. NAR needs to take a serious look at what's going on. I believe Steve Westmark went through this battle a year or two ago in the Minneapolis market. For those of you who want to get the word spread, I'd suggest you get it on your own blogs, link it to here and each other, and NAR, and spread the word to as many of your peers as possible.

Very interesting situtation.... Will be waitng to hear more on this issue.  Another thing people don't think about is using YOURCITYRealtor.com which is a violation, but you can use YOURNAMERealtor.com and YOURCOMPANYRealtor.com if it is for the company.

Did not know anything about this...  Can you post a link to section 12?

Don - Give this a try:  http://www.realtor.org/mempolweb.nsf/pscoe?openview

Sam - Very interesting.  Thanks for posting this - I'll be back to see how things are progressing.

Great points Sam.  REALTORS lose if they are forced to abandon their MLS domains. To the general public, Multiple Listing Service is regarded as a place to learn about listings.   REALTORS work hard to bring this information to the public, and should be able to market their services accordingly.   

Steve Westmark shared the following site with me just last month.  I encourage everyone to check it out:  http://www.freethemls.com/petition-to-nar/. 

Joseph - Be sure to check out the link provided by Joe Lininger.

Joe - Thanks a ton for the link because I hadn't seen it before.  That site sure makes you think about the situation and how serious it really is.

This is one of those rulings made more for the benefit of one large company at the expense of the members of the organization. And this is done in the name of "ethics"?! That's almost funny.

I can see this costing all REALTORS a lot of money defending this, the new COE language almost copies the Feds for copyright, but it is not.

Want to do someting about it? Sign the petition @ http://www.freethemls.com/ 

Pass it around.

Don Price
Pinehurst Real Estate

"This is one of those rulings made more for the benefit of one large company at the expense of the members of the organization. And this is done in the name of "ethics"?! That's almost funny."

Ethics are the business equivalent of Morals.

From the time the our COE began they changed very little until about a decade or so ago. Now they are almost unrecognizable from the original document. I do not think that shows well for us as a group, trade association or profession.

Don Price
Pinehurst, NC Real Estate

 

It's just another reason not to support NAR.

NAR is way off base with their position. This move is indicative of a governing body over stretching their reach by their posturing in such a open ended and uneducated fashion.  NAR holds a neo-fascist concept that they would restrict use of these domains.

1) MLS is not a trademarked name (ask the Major League Soccer folks)

2) MLS refers only to a system at best and not a professional affiliation

3) Affiliating yourself with an MLS is not mandatory (in some states) in the pursuit of home sales (it is just a tool)

4) Does the consumer even identify with MLS? (our surveys say over 60 percent say no)

4a) to see our latest survey on FSBO's go to MLSHomeFinder.com on the bottom and view survey results

5) I would be very concerned about an eminent domain scenario for those URL holders containing MLS

6) Under NAR policy, individual brokers have the right to "opt out" of having their listings displayed on the IDX of another MLS participant.

7) Right now there are much bigger regulatory issue to be dealt with in this industry and personally I am disappointed they would focus on this aspect of the online world. 

8) We have an agreement with our local MLS to display their data, how does NAR get to trump their local level decision?

 

LinksToRealEstate.com 

Hmmm, makes me wonder how Move Inc. is going to benefit from this position?  I saw it mentioned in the comments, but this isn't the first time that the NAR has acted in a way that doesn't benefit it's members.  If you don't believe me check into NAR's relationship with Move, Inc. (the operators of Realtor.com) then tell me that you think that NAR is truly looking out for it's member's interests.

 

Bob Mitchell

ValueList Real Estate Services Inc. 

Chuck - We are both shaking our heads on this one.

Don - Great points and I signed that this morning after Joe Lininger shared it with us.  More agents need to check out that site. 

Jeff - Excellent points and NAR seems to be making some strange decisions especially lately.

Karen - I certainly understand why you would feel this way because it frustrates me also.  I think we need to all share our views with NAR and maybe they will revise their position.

Bob - I don't disagree with you and the situation with Realtor.com still angers me.  

 

Hi Sam.

MLS® is trademarked in Canada by the Canadian Real Estate Association (CREA). I believe NAR and CREA have an agreement about the MLS® and REALTOR® trademarks. I'm not sure about the international implications of a trademark.

This notice is on the http://www.realtor.ca/ web site:
© 1998-2006 The Canadian Real Estate Association. All rights reserved. MLS^®, Multiple Listing Service^®, and all related graphics are trademarks of The Canadian Real Estate Association. REALTOR^®, REALTORS^®, and all related graphics are trademarks of REALTOR^® Canada Inc. a corporation owned by  The Canadian Real Estate Association and the National Association of REALTORS^®.

For everyone that's truly angry about this situation here's a place to take some positive action against it.

Visit www.FreeTheMLS.com and sign our online petition.

I guarantee you that the NAR Professional Standards Committee will be revisiting this issue during the upcoming May meetings in Washington DC.

They and the Board of Directors are not insensitive to our opinion and if enough people address the issue it could be modified or eliminated altogether.

At worst they need to consider letting people who now own these "MLS" domains continue to use them by grandfathering them.

At best they need to rescind the new Code of Ethics changes.

Jim Lee - Great to hear from you and a couple of years ago we exchanged some e-mails back from the e-pro list serve.  You and I are on the same page with this issue and I hope NAR makes some positive changes because allowing our competition to have this ability to use MLS in their domain yet not allowing us is a HUGE disadvantage for REALTOR members.   

Where in section 12 is this originating?  I'm not finding the relevant passages when I skim through. (perhaps I'm reading an older version of the COE?)

It is a stupid decision by the NAR.  Plain and simple.  They didn't think through the unintended consequences of their actions. 

Hi Sam,

I think I know which real estate firm you're talking about that uses "xxxMLS" in their actual company name and domain name.  They originated in Cincinnati and have expanded around Ohio.

• Non REALTORS Have An Unfair Advantage If REALTORS Can't Use MLS in Their Domains.
• Non REALTORS Have An Unfair Advantage If REALTORS Can't Use MLS in Their Domains.
• Non REALTORS Have An Unfair Advantage If REALTORS Can't Use MLS in Their Domains.
• Non REALTORS Have An Unfair Advantage If REALTORS Can't Use MLS in Their Domains.
• Non REALTORS Have An Unfair Advantage If REALTORS Can't Use MLS in Their Domains.
• Non REALTORS Have An Unfair Advantage If REALTORS Can't Use MLS in Their Domains.
• Non REALTORS Have An Unfair Advantage If REALTORS Can't Use MLS in Their Domains.
• Non REALTORS Have An Unfair Advantage If REALTORS Can't Use MLS in Their Domains.

This is huge because the NAR 2007 profile of home buyers and sellers show that 54% of buyers use MLS web sites, and 49% use Realtor.com.  Realtor.com is losing market share...

Lane - It was a stupid decision which I believe was made for the wrong reason. 

Dan - You are correct and his firm advertises their business model in the Ohio Realtor Magazine.

Lenn - I love your enthusiasm for our topic. 

Sam,

This is an issue but there is a MUCH bigger issue brewing for all domain owners. 

A friend of mine sent me these links:

Please read the following

http://www.news.com/8301-13578_3-9879859-38.html

http://www.internetcommerce.org/Snowe_Bill_Threatens_Domain_Name_Registrants

The important quote here is this"

It would also make it unlawful for any person to use a domain name in connection with the display of a webpage or an advertisement on a webpage if-

The domain name was identical or confusingly similar to the name or brand name of a government office, nonprofit organization, business or other entity.

As an example if your domain is  OrlandoHomes.com  and a local REMAX office owns OrlandoHomes.net they can accuse your domain of being confusingly similar and attempt to have you fined up to $6 million dollars.  Since they can afford lawyers and you can't them you will likely lose, be fined and lose your domain name.

Also since most real estate sites have forms on them your site could be accused of phishing if you take information under false pretenses i.e. people think they are at the local remax site but they accidentally go to your site

 

The proposed law would make it illegal for any person to use a website in violation of the anti-dilution provisions of U.S. Trademark law to solicit any information facilitating the purchase of goods and services by use of false or fraudulent pretenses or "misleading representations" that the solicitation was being made by or on behalf of a government office, nonprofit organization, business, or other entity.

My friend also explaiined that over 2/3rds of phishing attacks occur from China, Russia and other countries so these people aren't subject to US laws anyway and most phishing scams use fake domains in the email but the actual links are to ip addresses or to domains like bankamerica.djdjdjdjdj.info

Most phishing scams last less than 4 hours so they email blast pick up some credit card numbers or bank logins and then shut down.

So to parade a bill out under the guise of protecting people against phishing scams and use it to allow corporations or other people that are late to the domain party to steal your name is just not right or fair 

 

  

 

This is how it was explained to me.  So you may want to call your Senator and ask them not to support this bill

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

AJ - Your comments are appreciated and I can see that issue truly creating some serious problems if it becomes a reality. 

Just another reason not to pay dues to the NAR or local association.  I would have the same amount of business without all of the hassles of being told what I can't do.  Ugh this is can't way out of hand.

This is one subject that really frosts my cookie.  I have written about this on my own Minneapolis real estate blog more than once.

Our local board of MLS governors will spank us for "abusing" the term "MLS" but still shares its feed to out-of-state companies that freely use the term "MLS."  We all know that consumers go to the web to "search the MLS" but we have to use different terminology. 

Ironically, our local MLS board of governors lets a couple of local companies use "MLS' in their urls. ( I think it is because these companies have big attorneys, but I am not sure.) In the meantime, they threatened to shut me down because I had the word "Minnesota MLS" in the title of an old web page. I was not even suggesting that visitors could search the mls on my site.... only that I could send them MLS listings (which I certainly can.)

What a pathetic industry.  We used to be able to protect all MLS information as confidential.  Then they give away our control by plastering it al over the web.  Now we can't even refer to it as the "MLS" even though the idx feed contains virtually all MLS listed homes in our area, unless you are a non-realtor or belong to a company that has special privileges.

This is all very thought provoking AND concerning. Thanks for excellent info and research on this!

Kermit - Thank you for sharing your personal experience.  I feel your pain and like many other ActiveRain members who have commented on this blog...we all see this as a huge problem and we collectively need to do something about it. 

Mara - I agree that it is very thought provoking for sure.  I have a feeling this topic and blog will continue to grow as other members of ActiveRain will forward this to their AR friends.  I think we need to seriously discuss this and ultimately I believe that NAR will be forced to modify their current rules. 

Spread the word because there are so few REALTORS who are actually aware of this issue. 

I wonder how this rule came to be.  There is even a new case study.  I hope that Realtors(r) write to NAR and share these concerns.  The attorney who presented the professional standards course ademately defended this decision even though we brought up these concerns when we had lunch with him.

Very interesting Sam. I understood why NAR did it, and we discussed this at a local Board meeting, but I had not considered your argument. There is always a counterpoint.

This is an excellent point and one which we would hope that the powers who be will strongly consider. Thanks for the post.

My biggest concern is we are advertising access to the MLS  when in fact we are only offering access to active listings. My biggest concern is someone winning a law suit saying we have been offering access to the MLS all these years so it is no big deal to give them complete access?

Joan - I don't know how this revision to the code of ethics came about but there was some motivations by some key people to be able to make this change and limit our ability to use specific domains.   I can't imagine why the attorney who was presenting professional standards courses would defend something that gives non REALTORS an advantage over REALTORS.

Wayne - Please share with us why NAR did this because I still can't figure it out.  Every REALTOR had the ability to utilize MLS in their own domain and now only non Realtors can.  I hate the ideal of lead generation firms can data mine OUR leads and then sell them back to us.  This is a very sore subject with me because NAR weakened our position as REALTORS with their revision.

Bob & Caroline - I also hope the "powers who be" will reconsider this decision and revise their decision.

Terry - My biggest issue with this is that people and firms who have no rights to the differnt MLS's actually will be the ones who will be able to market the term MLS in a way that we have no control.  I do not believe that NAR can protect the use of MLS with non members because I question if NAR has the authority to use the term MLS themselves. 

I was going to make another comment, and then I saw frosted cookies from Kermit...  Now I have them stuck on my brain.

oh yea...  The NAR is about a decade too late to even be relevant on this, and about 15 years too late to do anything about it.   

So can you have a non-realtor "friend" create a website with MLS in the domain and then have them sell leads to you for a flat fee of $10 per month?  Would that be considered "okay" ? 

AJ - Very creative idea but in many states that would not fly because of laws against paying non licensed entities.  However, I am unaware of anything that says that your daughter or son (non REALTORS) couldn't own an MLS domain site.  The Code of Ethics doesn't apply to them.  I can see many variations of others owning an MLS domain but hopefully it does not come to this and if NAR will simply revise their Code of Ethics we should all be ok. 

That is absolutely shameful. But what do we really expect? I don't think the MLS' or NAR have done much good for us lately.

Christy - It is very unfortunate that I even had to write this blog but the awareness it has created with AR members could hopefully do all of us some good.  I am positive that NAR is aware of the ripple they have created and if enough people share their opinions and concerns this problem can be corrected.

A special thanks to ActiveRain for making this a Featured topic.

Share those opinions and concerns at www.FreeTheMLS.com

 

 

Jim - I hope more people will do as you mentioned.  I also signed the petition yesterday and have shared the link with dozens of my real estate friends so that list should be growing soon.

Wow! If all the lead aggregators can use MLS in their domain names and we can't, that is totally flawed I agree.

John - Great to hear from you and I am happy you had an opportunity to comment.  Totally flawed as you put it is a great way to describe the Code of Ethics situation.

Happy Selling!

I would like to thank everyone who commented on this blog.  It certainly grew larger and got more attention than I thought it would...and the support from everyone has been fantastic! 

Thank You Again!

Sam

I spoke to our Ohio association president. He was not familiar with the controversy and said he would look over the information. The directors who got this approved did not really consider the ramifications. In my opinion it is all about competition. I do not know of any consumer who has filed a complaint. The complaints seem to be jealous Realtors. 

Kevin Duffy

ReMax Unlimited

www.CincinnatiMLS.com

Established in 1996

 

Hi Kevin - Great to hear from you.  I agree that this topic reaches much further than our REALTOR leadership ever imagined it would and they need to act quickly to resolve it.  I have gotten two e-mails today from other agents who are experiencing this challenge and these agents contacted me because of this ActiveRain topic.  This is a serious issue and if we are not careful it will alienate REALTORS and empower non REALTOR competitors.   

That does seem a little weird doesnt it.  The truth is..non realtors just dont have an advantage period.  They lack the sense to believe that a few costs will help them more.  They live in scarcity and definitely not in believing others can help them.

Dave - They do have a current advantage when it comes to domain names and their use.  Hopefully NAR will go to bat for it's members.

Sorry if this was already posted, but I saw this on Freethemls.com

http://www.realtor.org/rmomag.nsf/pages/AskMrIn200202221?OpenDocument 

 

In our Realtor magazine, MR. Internet tells Realtors to use MLS in their domain names. 

 

Go figure. 

 Anybody up for a class action?

Frank

Frank

I hope a lawsuit is not the answer. I think that we have to let the leadership know that that this is not a problem with the public. In Cincinnati more there are more than 50 mls.com domains by Realtors. Many of the owners of these domains serve on local state and national Realtor committees.  Does anyone know of a person that has been found guilty of of article 12 violations as it relates to MLS in a domain name.

 

Kevin Duffy

ReMax Unlimited

www.cincinnatimls.com